By MARK MCDONALD
June 17, 2012, 10:50 pm

BANGKOK — The censorati in China have had their hands full already this year, notably with trying to control news of the scandal surrounding the now-deposed Politburo member Bo Xilai and hushing up the dramatic escape of the blind activist Chen Guangcheng.

And with the 18th Communist Party Congress due to be held this autumn to install a new set of senior leaders, the watchers of the Web and the gatekeepers of the media must be working extra shifts. Just keeping Ai Weiwei bottled up must be a full-time job.

And then there’s Bao Tong. He’s 79 now, and blind in one eye, but in the 1980s, as consigliere to Zhao Ziyang, then general secretary of the Chinese Communist Party, Mr. Bao once moved through the loftiest corridors of power in Beijing.

Prime Minister Wen Jiabao is stepping down at the 18th congress, and during a fascinating interview just published in The New York Review of Books, Ian Johnson asked Mr. Bao for his take on Mr. Wen.

“He’s hard-working and diligent. But he hasn’t accomplished anything,” Mr. Bao said. “I’m sure he wouldn’t be satisfied with his work, though in one point he could say, ‘I didn’t let my own conscience down: I wasn’t lazy.’

“But I don’t want to speak badly of him. What did I do? What did I accomplish? People say, ‘well you weren’t corrupt.’ I say, wrong. If I were in the current system, I’d be corrupt too. Do you believe me? Believe me.”

Mr. Bao was detained just before the Tiananmen massacre on June 4, 1989. The month before, his boss, Mr. Zhao, had famously walked among the student protesters in the square, and he opposed the eventual use of violent military force there.

Mr. Bao was convicted of revealing state secrets. His seven-year term at Qincheng Prison was served largely in solitary confinement. He was released in 1996.

Even now, the secret police shadow him.

Ian discovered that when he tried to meet with Mr. Bao at his apartment in suburban Beijing. The secret police, Ian said, wouldn’t let him in the building, so Mr. Bao came out and met him at a neighborhood McDonald’s that seemed to be a favorite of Mr. Bao’s.

“You can get unlimited coffee refills at McDonald’s, including milk and sugar,” he said.

As they began to talk, Ian noticed a group of men watching them from a nearby table.

“Forget them,” Mr. Bao said. “They follow me wherever I go.”

When asked whether former senior leaders might still have influence on Chinese policy making, behind the scenes, Mr. Bao said, “The big difference is that in the past it was one person who decided: Mao and then Deng. Now a few people decide.”

Excerpts from the interview, with Ian’s questions in italics:

Is this good? Some people say the lack of a single strong leader explains why there have been no major economic reforms in the past decade.

Overall it’s a good thing. It’s terrible when just one person decides. You can talk about Deng’s reforms, but what about Mao? He could decide anything but he chose the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward. And Deng, well there was June 4.

Now the leaders are more deadlocked. If they can’t decide, nothing happens. In America, if you’re corrupt you have to resign. Look at Nixon. He had Watergate and had to resign. In China does that happen? No. Why? Because everyone is in one boat. If that boat turns over, everyone ends up in the water. When I say “everyone” of course I mean the people in power. So in China everyone helps each other out. If you are in trouble, I’ll help you out and if I’m in trouble you help me out. So only in an extreme case like Bo Xilai can someone be pushed out.

Right now it’s nine guys helping each other out [the nine members of the Politburo’s Standing Committee]. That’s the political system. No one wants to rock the boat.

So what are your wishes for the 18th Party Congress?

I hope it can solve the current problems. But what they need to do is change the system. If they can then it’s great. So this issue [concerning Bo Xilai] is a chance. If it’s dealt with as a symptom of a systemic problem it’ll be a good opportunity. If it’s not, or they deal with Bo by saying “he’s crazy,” then it’s a lost opportunity. If it’s just go after this person but not the system, then it’s a loss. Then the 19th party congress, then the 20th party congress — they’ll all be the same.

But we on the outside can’t tell what’s happening. Ordinary people can’t act. They can’t speak. They just have eyes and can watch.